tsinogatna
Nibbler
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Post by tsinogatna on Jul 1, 2007 7:20:54 GMT -8
Not to start a huge religious debate (or maybe? ) but recently I've been thinking about religion and my own faith quite a bit. I am in fact, agnostic. I don't confirm nor deny that God, or whatever you'd like to call Him, exists. It's impossible to know. But rather than rant myself, I recently stumbled upon someone else's rant, and thought maybe I'd share. It just kind of sums up all my doubts about Christianity, in particular. So let the discussion begin. Agree with me, or convince me to believe otherwise.
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Post by April on Jul 2, 2007 8:12:05 GMT -8
Wow.. that's actually a really good point.. hah.. that's actually kinda funny. Whoever wrote this clearly is trying to make Jesus seem pretty stupid. Parts of this person's rant reminds me of Chronicles of Riddick.. where they forced people to conform to their orders, and if they refused, they were killed. Until I read this, I never actually thought of Christianity in that way.. but I guess it kind of is. I try to stay out of religious debates.. I grew up with religion being forced down my throat basically... so I'm still not really sure what I believe, concerning all that.
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Anarchy
Blood-sucking Freak
Just killing some time.
Nibbles: 997
Crackin' since: January 2006
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Post by Anarchy on Jul 2, 2007 9:15:14 GMT -8
well i dont go to church. dont do the prayer thing either. i dont mind if others want to believe in something, as long as they dont try to force it upon me. i dont like the people who go door to door bothering others. i really dont know what to think of the entire god/satan thing. neither seem to have much importance.
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jamesbond110
Nibbler
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Post by jamesbond110 on Jul 6, 2007 8:27:40 GMT -8
God is the answer to why. Not how.
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xeno|oreo
.:Nutcase-In-Chief:.
Nibbles: 5,073
Crackin' since: August 2004
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Post by xeno|oreo on Sept 18, 2007 13:32:43 GMT -8
Great point.. It would seem that the relationship between God and Satan is simply that of a vain tyrant and an oppressed subject... It bugs me... the concepts of the religion are so flawed and self-contradicting; yet, most people blindly believe and attempt to follow according to these teachings.. Perhaps there used to be something to Christianity... but it's obviously been lost over the years. The truth certainly can't be what we know as modern organized religion... it is simply impossible; the concepts cancel out themselves. Good read, many excellent points, pointing out the absurdities of religion and it's general... silliness. I enjoyed it
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Mister Mouse
Si on devait mourir demain, qu'est-ce que tu ferais?
Nibbles: 790
Crackin' since: September 2007
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Post by Mister Mouse on Sept 24, 2007 9:25:29 GMT -8
Valid and interesting points made.
I'll agree with xeno|oreo on this matter - and to add to it, make a small statement (or as small as I can manage).
I grew up, as you said, having religion forced down my throat. I was raised a Roman Catholic and taught to conform, otherwise I was a sinner and not worthy of the life bestowed upon me by God. Because of this way of thinking, I grew up believing something was wrong with me - I was afraid to have close friends merely because they brought out WHO I AM. I am a bisexual... a lesbian if you'd rather. Being raised in such a... constrictive and contradictive environment was horrifying to me. However, if God has said to show mercy upon our kin, that no man should cast a stone upon another... how is it that humankind finds itself stoning (metaphorically usually, but not always) those who stray from the common path. Why should we try so hard to blend in - to conform to something we don't believe in, when we were made to stick out? Certainly, at one point religion may have been pure - a good IDEA. But once ideas are turned to beliefs, they are often corrupted and changed for the use of power-hungry tyrants. Man has destroyed what may have once been pure and uses it now merely as an excuse to murder those who oppose them - through spiritual, emotional, and physical attacks.
Religion may have once been a place of refuge and safety - now it is merely a place of corruption and hate. I have run into few "believers" who accept me as who I am - controlled by people who fill their minds with long-dead scriptures and meaningless words they shun me because I am different.
Quote people, use phrases you've read in a newspaper or in the Bible itself, do whatever it takes to express your opinion -> there are people out there suffering because of what BELIEFS have done.
Don't "believe"... just have a good idea and carry it in your heart. THAT is the smartest thing you could do.
Always question, never settle.
If any of that made ANY sense to ANYONE... let me know...
I just jumbled up my own brain.
Can't Wait to see the Opinions of Others, ~Mi~
I think I just carried that whole statement around in a big circle... and it's making me dizzy... -_-"
BTW: I'm Agnostic as well.
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xeno|oreo
.:Nutcase-In-Chief:.
Nibbles: 5,073
Crackin' since: August 2004
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Post by xeno|oreo on Sept 24, 2007 15:30:52 GMT -8
... I am in love with your comment I must say... you expressed that far more eloquently than I did. Brava
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Mister Mouse
Si on devait mourir demain, qu'est-ce que tu ferais?
Nibbles: 790
Crackin' since: September 2007
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Post by Mister Mouse on Sept 24, 2007 15:49:22 GMT -8
Thank you. I am glad you enjoyed it. And I'm glad I made my point. ^-^
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-=Xavyn=-
Nibbles: 100
Crackin' since: October 2006
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Post by -=Xavyn=- on Sept 24, 2007 16:30:56 GMT -8
Well, I read this a while ago. Some of the things that the author pointed out were things I had already questioned as a child, and some were amazing things I never would have thought of. Like Emmi, I'm agnostic. I believe there's either something more to the world... or just isn't. My belief is when we die, we either go to heaven (no one goes down there any more. Too much room for forgiveness.) or there's just... nothing.
I think the reason why humanity created religion was to try and see something that was not there. The very fact that there is absolutely nothing after you die drove many people to madness. It's incomprehensible. Seriously, who knows what exactly "nothing" is?
So, there were many ideas, a lot of them circling around good and evil, etc, etc... varying in numbers of gods, rules, and freedoms. Of course, almost all of these religions gave some excusable reason to "smite down the unbelievers."
Humanity... sucks. I mean, seriously. It seems the only reason we exist is to look out for "me" and "me" only; who cares if someone gets in the way? Of course, there are nice things about us... but most of the nice things involve some way of self gain. There are people dying from unimaginable things, and a lot of people just don't care. Some people actually do care, but because of the great big bad "society," it's made for you to think that you can't really help them at all. The big reason why? Difference. We don't want to interfere because they're so far away from us, with such different conditions, that we just don't really care at all.
Most of the reason why these poor people aren't being helped is because the money-grubbing upper classes with all the power don't want to "waste" their money on them. These people control the politicians to do their bidding. Ugh... it disgusts me how bad human greed can get. It's the only reason Communism didn't work, since the upper class used it to get more money.
And now, one of the most corruptible things in society: Government. It's good and bad at the same time. It sets a few rules to make sure the people don't kill each other (too much) and gives them freedom to good things. This is one thing I don't understand. What is the point of government? To make sure the people are happy, and not trying to inflict harm on anyone else. The USA's government does a relatively good job of keeping the people from hurting each other... but not many people are very happy.
I think a time for a new government is in order... one which specifically exists to make the people happy. There would be enough officials in the government to make them happy, to go over their personal lives and make sure they are living out what they want to do. Of course, this idea is not that great. Two things: not enough money, and too much trust. Of course, it would cost a great amount of money to have every single official out there working for people, and those officials could be making the person's life hell. Not to mention extremely paranoid. You know, my dad believes that all government is corrupt. I think he's right.
People need to seriously look themselves over. Instead of stressing over how to get that girl, get that job, make an x amount of money, or studying for that test, they need to worry about how they are as a person to others. Who cares what others believe, as long as they are not hurting another? We need to look beyond others' oddities, and see them how they truly are; as a human. Love is something that SHOULD be thrown around more often in society. Throw around too much of something else and people get annoyed far too quickly. No one can really say no to love.
Oh, and by the way: Humans are evil and good at the same time. The greater good they can do, the greater evil they also can do. Just keep that in mind.
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xeno|oreo
.:Nutcase-In-Chief:.
Nibbles: 5,073
Crackin' since: August 2004
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Post by xeno|oreo on Sept 24, 2007 17:06:41 GMT -8
Hmmm... so now we're taking religion and using it to connect to the whole of the problems that torments society and the human condition, are we? The thing is, everyone is always convinced that their beliefs are right; no matter what the evidence to the contrary is; no matter what evils their people do in the name of their faith; no matter what their common sense may say. Everyone nowadays dismisses the old religions... Norse mythology... Egyptian mythology... Greek mythology... as simply myths. To take them seriously would be absurd... I mean, just look how silly it is. Simply tales told for both amusement and to explain the unknown... Yet many fail to make the connection to modern religion. There's no difference... in the future, Christianity, Judaism, Islam... all of them will likely be looked upon as just as silly. Even the concepts, the names, the ideals of newer religions... are borrowed from older faiths. It's the same phenomenon, simply adapted as time goes along, not any more valid than the old faiths. I wouldn't give them quite so much credit... The US might do an alright job of keeping relative peace in America (you know... minus some of the worlds highest capital punishment rates and having the highest percentage of the total national population being jailed..) .. but we certainly don't seem to value non-American live all that much... Annihilating all of those who agitate us, doing whatever the hell we feel like, ignoring the plight of those sincerely in need, whom it would be so easy to help... People are sheep.
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-=Xavyn=-
Nibbles: 100
Crackin' since: October 2006
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Post by -=Xavyn=- on Sept 24, 2007 17:23:24 GMT -8
Of course, when I say that America does a good job of keeping the rules, it's a little more like oppression. And I'm only talking about the people who are actually in America, remember. ^^ But I do not disagree that America really isn't that great. I seriously plan on getting out of here as soon as I humanly can. Democracy is very much run by money.
And, of course, of myths and religions... that is also true, and very possible. Humans can be so very gullible. I guess the want for a simple life puts the truth out of our minds.
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Mister Mouse
Si on devait mourir demain, qu'est-ce que tu ferais?
Nibbles: 790
Crackin' since: September 2007
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Post by Mister Mouse on Sept 25, 2007 7:18:26 GMT -8
And now, after reading through my friends' responses I still have things to say -> Surprising? Not really. Necessary? Perhaps. Am I going to further the discussion? Hell yeah. Already, in the first paragraph of Eoin's response (after my Last Nibble) are my words of importance once again showing. "Belief" and "idea", two very different things that are very commonly put together in the same pot of stew (yay metaphors!)... words that I have mentioned and will continue to mention. I am agnostic, yes, but looking at the statement that followed Eoin's remark about being agnostic, I have to... edit my statement for accuracy purposes. I am nothing. I have an idea, no belief. I have an idea that there may be an afterlife. I have an idea that there may be some being out there with more power than anyone could imagine. I have an idea that energy may be recycled and each "soul" as they are called may be reborn. I have an idea that the Gods, Goddesses, Demi-Gods, and their like may have once existed, or may still exist on some level. I have an idea that a person's being or subconscious may linger, even in Death upon this world. I have an idea that maybe all of these things were just made up for the comfort and corruption of people on this Earth. I have an idea, that in order to have an idea, we must think. I have an idea that if there is a higher being out there, they had the idea to make this world... and THOUGHT "this is a good idea". I have an idea... and I will question and reshape my "idea" for as long as I live. Remember: The only way to have a "good idea" is to have many. On the t-o-p-i-c of what nothing is -> is nothing even possible? If there is nothing, then isn't that something? It's contradictory and it can drive one mad if you think about it long enough, but isn't everything, in the grand scheme, nothing... and isn't nothing, everything? These are just questions to ponder through life, and possibly through what comes after, but still... I have an idea that this should be questioned thoroughly... and that we may sound like philosophers when this is all over and done with. ^-^ And yes, there were many ideas, of good and evil, of black and white... but what IS good, and what IS evil? How are these things decided? What is black, what is white? What is the gray of in-between? We all have a different idea of what they are, but no one truly knows. As for the roaming into politics and world problems -> I have an idea that the conversation may have steered that way due to my first post, but I'll have to say... does anyone remember the idea of separation of church and state? Well, they had an idea that that would be wonderful as well, but no one has the same idea anymore. Rarely are the two separated - they both effect the other to no end. It's wrong, but true. Government was once a good idea, then people BELIEVED in government and it grew corrupt. Communism - a good idea, a bad belief - also corrupted (of course, it is a form of government) I think that only those who have read the Communist Manifesto can truly grasp what the idea was - only those who have read Utopia can understand what the idea was. There was no belief - only the ideas, and the power to make others think and have their own ideas. Unfortunately, it is rare that any idea should remain an idea and not develop into a belief. Take a look at your everyday life! How many ideas do you have that may, in the future, be turned to beliefs? How many beliefs do you have that were once ideas? To those who believe, ancient/past "mythology" may look foolish, but if you are constantly thinking and make certain to keep such things as ideas - you may understand them and have an idea that they may be true on some level. I have an idea. You should too. ^-^ ~Mi~ BTW: America pisses me off. I have an idea to move oot and away as soon as undergrad is over... America was a good idea... and then they believed in power and it was corrupted as well. Our ideas could help to change the world for the better - they just need to be listened to.
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xeno|oreo
.:Nutcase-In-Chief:.
Nibbles: 5,073
Crackin' since: August 2004
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Post by xeno|oreo on Sept 25, 2007 12:48:28 GMT -8
Very interesting.. rarely is the distinction made between an idea and a belief. I must admit- I do have some beliefs that I cling to. I believe that no form of divine power exists, or ever has; at least not how it is conventionally thought of. It simply seems absurd. However, there are other concepts present in many religions that may have some merit.
You talked about whether nothing was possible. Were you referring to nothing as in 'no divine power' or 'driving force?' Indeed... 'nothing' as a concept is certainly diminishing... with more recent discoveries such as antimatter; we learn that even where we thought nothing was present-- there was still the opposite of matter. Which is something. What we used to think was a void that surrounds us, now we realize actually is something, albeit beyond our reach and barely within our comprehension. But referring to deities or gods... certainly it is possible for there not to be any. Driving force... I am not sure about that. It depends on how you interpret the concept... Is everything somehow connected? Certainly... What comprises the essence of life, or indeed the idea of a 'soul?' I don't know... nor do I really have a belief or idea. What is a soul? What is life?
Here's something that hasn't really been touched upon that much... what are the modern benefits of modern day religion? What does it do for us? Many would certainly argue that even if the whole thing was a load of crap, it would still be an overall positive influence on mankind... what with the ability to bind people, unite them... the moralities and rules and such. But doesn't government take the place of much of religion? Many of the 'commandments' from the old testament, for example, are covered in modern law... No killing, no stealing, no raping.... just as examples. And I argue that ethics-wise, I have my own ideal, which in my own opinion are less jaded and more fundamental than religious virtues. I know what I stand for, and what I do not. I have my own interpretations of right and wrong.
Any thoughts?
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Mister Mouse
Si on devait mourir demain, qu'est-ce que tu ferais?
Nibbles: 790
Crackin' since: September 2007
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Post by Mister Mouse on Sept 25, 2007 13:10:51 GMT -8
Actually, I was indeed refferring to the lack of matter and the fact that there is still something there. I was also referring to driving force... just something to ponder for a while. You are, indeed, right about government taking the place of religion in most part - and for the parts that haven't been cut out... they really were too twisted to make law anyways. I have my own ideals for what's right and wrong, too... but just because I have the idea, doesn't mean they're the same as the ideas they had when they created the Bible, the ideas they had when creating the law, the ideas YOU have. All ideas are different. I have no idea if what I just said makes sense, but if it doesn't oh well...
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St. Jimmy
Nibbles: 663
Crackin' since: December 2004
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Post by St. Jimmy on Sept 26, 2007 18:25:10 GMT -8
Anyone else read God is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens? He makes some very good points against organized religion and how it can actually harmful to the human race. Bought it in Sydney but I'm pretty sure you can buy it in here in the States. I recommend that everyone should read it.
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